Hi, I have two W123 sedans, one a wrecked '84 Euro grey market, NA engine, 5 speed Getrag, crank windows, tow hitch, etc. Before the car was wrecked I had done the job of replacing the clutch (broken pressure plate spring), and had had to search for the correct parts.
The other one is a U.S. Market '85 turbo sedan with Otto matic trans & turbo. Question 1) I asked the local driveline builder how they'd address getting the engine balance right, and they said that if I brought both the flexplate/torque converter and the Flywheel and clutch assembly, that they just balance the flywheel assembly to match the flexplate assembly, and that would work. It sounds logical. Does this make sense?
The company: - macmaster.com/ has a good reputation around here. Question 2) The transmission nameplate reads: Original Mercedes Benz Teil Nr: 123 260 2001 Aggregat Nr. /80 024716 (the '7' may be a 'Z') Before the car got wrecked, the transmission was making a funny 'clanking' noise only while in neutral with the clutch ENGAGED. It sounds kind of like a bad throw out bearing, except that with the clutch engaged the bearing isn't turning.
I've been told that the problem is something about a shaft that runs in a bored bushing in the aluminum case, and that the fix is to bore it out and install a bearing. Is anyone familiar with this gearbox or this problem? Are parts available?
Either from Mercedes or Getrag? Can anyone recommend a transmission guy who's familiar with these? My plan is to take the car off the road this winter, and I wouldn't be in a screeching hurry to turn the job around. Question #3: I hate the U.S. Car's 'not so Smart' climate control, and have toyed with transplanting the manual rig out of the Euro car. I've been warned that this involves tearing the whole dashboard out, and is a pain in the neck.
Anyone done it? Thanks for any advice. Yep, a noise heard in neutral with the clutch pedal up and clutch engaged, is comibg from the input shaft bearing. In that case, the whole clutch assembly is turning together, as well as the input shaft. The throwout bearing does not spin. Disengaging the clutch at a stop causes the throwout bearing and pilot bearing to spin, but it stops the clutch disc and input shaft from spinning. Unless the noise is very bad and very loud, don't worry.
My 717.410 kind of sounds like a sewing machine whirring when the input shaft spins at idle in neutral. I'm not worried.
Winmutt, I thought that MB made turbo 5 cyls for the European market, and assumed that they offered them with gearboxes. Did they not hold up? I only have anecdotal evidence, but when I was running the NA 300D, we used to go to work at an average speed of 100 mph (middle of the winter, middle of the night, Augusta Maine to Yarmouth) Maine, and the gearbox held up all right, except for the odd clanking at idle. And the gearbox has 260,000 miles on it, and the car only 100, so I'm hoping to put another 200,000 on the gearbox before I'm done. Howdy, I am looking for the clutch kit for my five speed. Have you sourced one?
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I want to swap out the tranny since I never really had an effective 2nd gear. During the swap, I want to replace the clutch, et cet.
I clocked over 100 MPH a little while ago. I bet your differential was howling. I have a 2:65LSD, and I cannot imagine the stock 3:69 (or anything in that ballpark) would have fun hitting triple digits. Congrats on hitting 100+. Please post what you find out about a clutch kit. Unlikely the trans will last long behind the 300td. I would get a rebuild job done with the longest warranty you can find.
I think this gear box can handle the torque. They are rated for 270 nm. Gl275 The rattle is the reverse idler bushing bearing most likely. Chances are the input shaft will be not worn. If you search international forums you will see that many people have tried to remedy this problem to no avail.
I brought mine to a repair shop and was lucky to get out the door for under $500. Just for the input shaft bearing.
That did nothing to the side to side play in the input shaft. You wont get out the door very easily under 1k for a simple overhaul and that may still not remedy the issue. The entire transmission could be brought into specifications as far as clearances and end play go. That requires complete tear down and rebuild. QUOTE=greazzer;3391154Howdy, I am looking for the clutch kit for my five speed. Have you sourced one?
I want to swap out the tranny since I never really had an effective 2nd gear. During the swap, I want to replace the clutch, et cet. I bought the clutch, pressure plate, and master cylinder from a mail order place somewhere in the U.S. But that was ten years ago, and lord knows where the paper has gone. I mainly remember doing it in a poorly heated shop, with the car on ramps, and it was a very miserable job.
The most interesting part was that there was one bolt that could only be removed/installed with an assembly of about three feet of socket extensions and two universal joints. Great design!! Have you tried Mercedes? By the way, while looking for the name of the parts seller in my digital files, I came up with this response from a Porsche specialist.
What you are describing is a Reverse Idler Gear - also know as an Idler Gear or Auxiliary Gear. It's a common problem with Getrag Transmission. Among BMWs, the 260, 240 and 280 and 250 all share this same problem. From the factory, there is a shaft in the Tranny, that supports the Reverse Idler Gear and it is NOT shimmed properly against the case (too much clearance.) Somewhere after 125,000 to 150,000 miles and/or without regular oil changes, the rattle develops. To fix it (in a BMWanyway), the entire transmission must be disassembled and reshimmed. Your transmission won't break or prevent you from getting home but it is annoying.
Is it a stout transmission? Is it easy to rebuild? I ask because I am contemplating a diesel swap into my Land Rover Range Rover Classic. I know the OM617 doesn't produce the same power as my gasser, but I rarely use the power of my gasser anyway (I drive like a granny). I kind of like the idea of an engine that will run forever and not tear up my running gear (some other diesels produce too much power for my stock Rover stuff). I have figured out how to divorce my LT230 transfer case so I am looking for a suitable 2wd diesel donor car with a manual transmission (or auto if it is really short).the OM617 is high on my list due to availability, price, and durability. I am curious about the manual trannies.
I have heard the autos need rebuilds often compared to the engines, I am wondering if the manuals are the same.and if they are, how easily are they rebuilt? I am divorcing the transfer case the same way Mike Slade's crew cab was done.
There are a couple places online that describe it. You take the output flange assembly from the front output of an LT230, widen the splines hole in the center, press a rover coupler shaft through it, and weld the seams. Then you take place your assembly into the LT230 input and take the PTO port off of your LT230. Use a bolt and a couple washers through the coupler (it is hollow) to hold it in place. Replace the PTO port.
Now you have a divorced LT230 just like Mike Slade's. Not easily done, as I recall. I think the flywheels are different from a 617 and a 615 (w123 240D engine). 4speed manual Mercedes transmissions are worth their weight. A lot of the Mercedes guys want them.In addition these motors are ballanced as a complete assembly. My factory engine manual goes into detail as to the ballancing of the flywheel. Each motor is individually ballanced as a complete unit and the final adjusting done to the flywheel.
If you look at your flywheel you will see factory paint marks, note this before you remove (the bolt circle is even) and have the replacement flywheel match ballanced. I just found this site and find it quite interesting.
I have personally logged close to a million miles in 123 Mercedes cars with 616 diesels and four speed transmissions and my family. Has driven them probably another several hundred thousand miles. No one besides myself ever put a wrench on these cars so I'm quite familiar with them. The 617/616 engine family are the diesels used from about 1977 to 1985. The engines were used in the 126 series chassis which were the big bodied cars such as the 300SD. They were also and much more commonly found in the 123 series cars that were the 240D and 300D. The 240 having the four cylinder 616 engine while the 300D having the five cylinder version.
Basically same engines. In all the 126 chassis cars and in the last four years, 82-85 of the 123 cars were turbocharged versions of the 617.
The turbo versions recieved internal improvements to cope with the turbo. In US models manual transmissions were available and widely sold in the 240D cars from 77 to 83. The 240 model was dropped in the US lineup beginning 84. There were never any manual transmission 300D's in the US lineup, but were quite common in Europe with both four and five speeds.
A few of them made it to the US as grey market cars. There were NEVER, even in Europe, turbo 617's sold with a manual transmission. A few have been built by US enthusiasts with varying levels of success. The manual transmission from the 240D will indeed fit onto a 617 five cylinder engine, but there are a few things that one should be aware of: The early 123 cars, 77-to somewhere in the 80 model year, had a different manual transmission and starter than did the late cars.
They will interchange IF the adapter plate that corresponds to the transmission is used. In the 123 chassis, due to engine length, the transmission is moved further back in the chassis necessitating a custom driveshaft, but in the context of this thread or even this forum, custom driveshaft would be a given anyway. Additionally, the starters in the early and late versions are different. It's an achilles heel of these cars because the starters will interchange to the point of bolting in place, but there are slight dimensional differences that will wear the starter and flywheel ring gear teeth rapidly. This is not a typical MB engineering occurrence. The manual transmissions are quite robust. I drove my first 240D almost 300,000 miles and my second to just over a half million miles without ever opening up the transmission.
I changed the oil in it every 100,000 miles. I understand that they are not an easy rebuild, but with a shop press it can be accomplished, but parts are expensive. The 5 cylinder transmission is the same as the four and I fully expect that unless bang shifted like a drag racer, it would last forever behind a 617 or 616 MB diesel engine in whatever chassis situation it were properly installed into. I have lots of wrenching and interchangability knowledge for this family of cars, so feel free to PM or email me with any questions. Manual transmissions in many cases are cheaper and easier to rebuild, but that's a moot point, since unless abused, they never need rebuilding.
I have driven many cars multiple hundreds of thousands of miles without ever doing ANYTHING to a manual transmission except change the lubricant every 100,000 miles or so. That's one of the things I love about them, low maintenance.
I have a car with over 300,000 miles which not only has ever had the manual transmission touched, but it still has the factory clutch. How many fluid and filter changes would that car have seen had it been equipped with an automatic?
Give it to a sixteen year old kid, however, and it might need both in a few thousand miles, even if it were new, but driven properly, they are almost totally maintenance free. I have gotten flamed SO many times on discussion forums because of my complete love and admiration for manual transmissions. On the other side, even though I'm certified by ASE on automatic transmissions, I LOATHE them!
I hate driving them, I hate maintaining them and I hate rebuilding them! So, what I have learned is that transmission choice is as much opinion related as is color choice. The VAST majority of Americans today prefer automatic transmissions.
Go to Europe and you have a tough time finding automatic transmissions in cars. Of course, they are paying $8 a gallon for gas over there, so there's not much money left for auto frills and they need to save a fraction of an MPG wherever they can. Please don't flame me! I'm not knocking those that love their slush boxes. It's personal choice, and I respect anyone's opinions and tastes.
On top of that, on a forum like this one, personal taste and opinion is everything. That's why people here are doing engine swaps. Schlepper, Since finding this site my head is spinning with MB engine transplants possibilities. If you are not talking about a 4X4 Toyota or Nissan pickup, and you're not talking about an auto gearbox, I would use the MB gearbox. Also, if you're looking for reliabilty and economy as opposed to performance I would swap in the 616 as opposed to the 617. The four cylinder version is SUPER easy to work on, more fuel efficient and compact as diesels go and DIRT reliable if maintained properly. I have one that I and my son took past 500,000 miles.
If you are looking to mate the 616/617 (same bellhousing fit) to the native Toyota or Nissan transmission, I would expect that you would have to build your own adapter. This might not be as tough as you think because of the way they are fitted into the MB vehicles. All the 616/617 engines have the same four bolt mount on the rear of the engine. A transmission 'adapter' bolts to the engine, and the transmission bolts to the 'adapter.' If you're an accomplished fabricator/machinist type or know of someone who is, look at the desired transmission and one of the MB Adapters and see what it would take. If you were to go this far, you would want set it up with some eccentrics or something in order to be able to adjust for crankshaft/input shaft concentricity.
I have a couple of parts cars with very rebuildable 616 engines and manual transmissions. My thinking is puttig one of these units in a Ranger pickup. These trucks are light enough, as would be the Japanese trucks, that the 240 engine would move it along quite well.
There should be plenty of room in the engine compartment. The only major variable I haven't looked into is sump location. The 616/617 have front sump oil pans. Since most modern Fords have front sumps, the Ranger probably does too. As to your power question, maybe I don't have to point it out here on a diesel forum, but diesels don't develop much horsepower. Horsepower is a calculated value that is mathematically advanced when the torque peak is at a high RPM. The 616's made about 63 HP in the early version and 67 in the later version.
The Normally Aspirated(NA) 617's made about 78 HP and the Turbo versions made a little over 100, maybe more like 115. There are plenty of tweaks that can be done on the Turbo version, at the expense of engine life of course. The 123 car is close to 3,500 pounds in it's standard form and the 67 Horsepower with a manual transmission moves the car along quite well and can cruise all day long at 85MPH. I've done that 75 to 85 MPH cruising for many hundreds of thousands of miles in an earlier life. The same car with the MB automatic is a DOG to drive, however. Hope you find this rambling useful.
Manual transmissions in many cases are cheaper and easier to rebuild, but that's a moot point, since unless abused, they never need rebuilding. I have driven many cars multiple hundreds of thousands of miles without ever doing ANYTHING to a manual transmission except change the lubricant every 100,000 miles or so. That's one of the things I love about them, low maintenance. I have a car with over 300,000 miles which not only has ever had the manual transmission touched, but it still has the factory clutch. How many fluid and filter changes would that car have seen had it been equipped with an automatic? Give it to a sixteen year old kid, however, and it might need both in a few thousand miles, even if it were new, but driven properly, they are almost totally maintenance free.
So, what I have learned is that transmission choice is as much opinion related as is color choice. The VAST majority of Americans today prefer automatic transmissions.
![Mercedes W123 Manual Gearbox Stop Mercedes W123 Manual Gearbox Stop](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5b/b5/46/5bb54659d694037ff8eabe2bdd7790f9.jpg)
Go to Europe and you have a tough time finding automatic transmissions in cars. Of course, they are paying $8 a gallon for gas over there, so there's not much money left for auto frills and they need to save a fraction of an MPG wherever they can.maybe for this reasons manual-automated transmissions are having an increased popularity in europe and even the u.s. As they're basically a manual transmission with a sequential selective device such as that found on motorcycles with an automated clutch (as i don't like to use the clutch pedal i like this system) and a 'robot' to change the gears 'on-the-time' if the driver select the fully-automated mode. Mexican ford fiesta uses this kind of transmission, but it's a double-clutch one just like volkswagen's dsg, with one clutch activated to get a lower gear ready to be shifted and the other clutch ready to shift for a higher gear. Probably chrysler will replace some of their automatic transmissions for some of this kind soon. I just found this site and find it quite interesting. I have personally logged close to a million miles in 123 Mercedes cars with 616 diesels and four speed transmissions and my family.
Has driven them probably another several hundred thousand miles. No one besides myself ever put a wrench on these cars so I'm quite familiar with them.
The 617/616 engine family are the diesels used from about 1977 to 1985. The engines were used in the 126 series chassis which were the big bodied cars such as the 300SD. They were also and much more commonly found in the 123 series cars that were the 240D and 300D. The 240 having the four cylinder 616 engine while the 300D having the five cylinder version.
Basically same engines. In all the 126 chassis cars and in the last four years, 82-85 of the 123 cars were turbocharged versions of the 617.
The turbo versions recieved internal improvements to cope with the turbo. In US models manual transmissions were available and widely sold in the 240D cars from 77 to 83. The 240 model was dropped in the US lineup beginning 84.
There were never any manual transmission 300D's in the US lineup, but were quite common in Europe with both four and five speeds. A few of them made it to the US as grey market cars. There were NEVER, even in Europe, turbo 617's sold with a manual transmission.
A few have been built by US enthusiasts with varying levels of success. The manual transmission from the 240D will indeed fit onto a 617 five cylinder engine, but there are a few things that one should be aware of: The early 123 cars, 77-to somewhere in the 80 model year, had a different manual transmission and starter than did the late cars. They will interchange IF the adapter plate that corresponds to the transmission is used. In the 123 chassis, due to engine length, the transmission is moved further back in the chassis necessitating a custom driveshaft, but in the context of this thread or even this forum, custom driveshaft would be a given anyway. Additionally, the starters in the early and late versions are different. It's an achilles heel of these cars because the starters will interchange to the point of bolting in place, but there are slight dimensional differences that will wear the starter and flywheel ring gear teeth rapidly. This is not a typical MB engineering occurrence.
The manual transmissions are quite robust. I drove my first 240D almost 300,000 miles and my second to just over a half million miles without ever opening up the transmission.
I changed the oil in it every 100,000 miles. I understand that they are not an easy rebuild, but with a shop press it can be accomplished, but parts are expensive. The 5 cylinder transmission is the same as the four and I fully expect that unless bang shifted like a drag racer, it would last forever behind a 617 or 616 MB diesel engine in whatever chassis situation it were properly installed into. I have lots of wrenching and interchangability knowledge for this family of cars, so feel free to PM or email me with any questions. So if we swap out a manual mb tranz-or are doing a swap using a mb manual flywheel-we should be sure to use a 240d manual tranz starter rather than a 300d automatic starter?The various paddle shift transmissions still lose the simplicity and durability of a manual transmission with the clutch pedal. If that's what you like then that's what you should drive.
For me, I'm not interested in driving, maintaining or repairing an automatic transmission of any description. Give me a handle and a clutch pedal. That's just me and I have no problem with those who prefer anything otherwise whether it has a clutch pedal or not. To my knowledge the paddle shift transmissions are just electronic controlled transmissions which allows Mfg.' S to use whatever switch arrangement they like. For the starter thing. No my point was not that an auto and manual starter are different.
An early (77 to 80) is different than a late (81 to 85.) Within the year ranges the starters interchange between auto's and manuals. Hope this is useful.
Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info. Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123? Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7. Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit. Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123. There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe. I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud: Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into? Robert Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and: The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back. Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate. To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter. The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article.
The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage. Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice. (, 10:47 AM)vstefis Wrote: Best bet would be a stock 5-speed trans for the w123 (any engine). The side levers are pretty much the same as the ones in the 4-speed manual, except a bit shorter. Anywho, easily modifiable via the cut and weld method.
The gearstick thingy is different, you'd need that, plus the short driveshaft bit, cross member, and that's about it. Easy to do, so I'd look for this. Plus it's original. And pretty good as well. Thanks for the tips, BUT Have been looking off and on for over 6 months and no joy. That's why the thoughts to convert to a more readily available Mercedes 5 or even 6 speed.
Are these stock 5-speeds you mention available in your 'neck of the woods'??? If so, there are 3 of us in the area looking for a 5 speed that will bolt up to the OM617. All 3 of us have 300TD wagons (estates) and one of the guys has been looking longer than I have and only found 4 speed manuals, NO 5 speeds located to date. (, 02:17 PM)vstefis Wrote: I can only say good things happen to those who wait.
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Perhaps, but for those of us who care to take an approach different from looking and waiting. And still explore the distinct possibility of building an adapter and using it to install a Mercedes 5 speed manual from a vehicle that is readily available and common enough to be inexpensive and easily fit.
The search continues, perhaps someone else will lend some answers to the questions asked in this thread. Thanks, Robert. (, 04:55 PM)aaa Wrote: Thanks for the URL to the excellent thread. It is full of useful information that shows very good work.
The approach taken, while extraordinary in my opinion, is much more difficult to repeat when compared to manufacturing your own adapter and flywheel. The thread showed the transmission adapted to the engine, but with an adapter and custom flywheel, it will be the other way around. This will eliminate any changes to the housing and first motion shaft. Am not knocking the good work, just would take a different approach. This was exactly the sort of information I was searching for.
It showed that other Mercedes transmissions had already been adapted and will work just fine provided you have the donor shifter that matches the adapted transmission and make the other changes in linkage, mounting, driveshaft sizing, and so on. My approach will be to find a plentiful 5 speed form the 80s early 90s era and make an adapter and flywheel so that the transmission won't need any modifications. Then if the adapted transmission fails or needs a rebuild it can be exchanged for another unit. Also the clutch will match the transmission shaft splines and length. Still need to research the spedo gear ratio on the donor unit and ensure an accurate reading. Hopefully this will lead me to purchase a unit to start the project. On another note, there was a 6 cyl Mercedes gas 250 engine and transmission that came out of a 1985 W124 on UK ebay.
The seller wasn't sure if it was a 4 or 5 speed, but the shape of the back of the housing may identify this or wonder if part numbers or markings somewhere on the housing would identify the number of gears. Would think there must be lists somewhere that specify this if you know the right numbers. Any suggestions here? W123 Getrag 5 speeds are 717.400. If you find a car with it in the states they are most likely from 1981+ Euro 280E/CE/TE, 300D/CD/TD and 240D. I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts.
The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400. Here is one for sale on ebay.de. If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing.
Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though. (, 08:02 PM)DeliveryValve Wrote: w123 Getrag 5 speeds are 717.400. If you find a car with it in the states they are most likely from 1981+ Euro 280E/CE/TE, 300D/CD/TD and 240D.
I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts. The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400. Here is one for sale on ebay.de If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing. Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though. Good to know, thanks.
Regarding the oil filter housing: For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing if this project to make an adapter and custom flywheel for a later 5 speed is a go. Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words): Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so? We should make a list of compatible transmissions. Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter? Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400? (, 08:51 PM)rdavisinva Wrote.
Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words): Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so? We should make a list of compatible transmissions. Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter?
Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400? Robert 4 speed shifter will not work with a 5 speed.
Not familiar with the w124 250 as there never was never one here in the states. Closest would be the turbocharged 300D 2.5L. But that one only came in a automatic. I would assume the w124 250 could be had in a Getrag 717.4xx. The numbers would be located on the right side of the trans. (Size: 22.06 KB / Downloads: 1,268) 717.420 and 717.400 to my understanding share the same ratios.
(, 05:44 AM)aaa Wrote: The 124 250D transmission would be just like a 190D's transmission, same starter hump issue. Sorry fat fingered the keyboard and after only 1 beer.
It is a manual transmission attached to a gasoline straight 6 cylinder 250 engine from a 1985 W123 not W124. Assume this engine is externally the same as the 2.8 liter straight 6, but with smaller displacement.
Heard back from the seller and the shift linkage and petal assembly were already removed from the vehicle, but the vin is: WDB5443 Will this help identify the number of gears if it still had the original manual transmission? I'll send him the question regarding the 717.4xx and share the answer. (, 09:45 PM)sassparillakid Wrote: Can we just have somebody with a lot of time on their hands manufacture a bunch of these 5 speeds so its not like a quest for the Holy Grail to get one? Lol That was the original intent. Because the aluminum casting that mounts to the back of the OM617 engine block determines the starter location and matches the transmission bolt pattern, it can be removed and a newly machined 'flywheel housing & transmission adapter' mounted in it's place.
This new adapter would then match the 'donor 5 speed manual transmission' (that originally matched a different Mercedes engine with the starter on the left) along with a custom made flywheel that takes the donor clutch (so there are no changes to the transmission shaft) and spaces the clutch out the same distance as the donor. This custom flywheel bolts to the OM617 crankshaft and takes the donor ring gear so the donor starter bolts to the custom adapter and starts the OM617 engine. (had to read that one twice to make sure it was typed correctly) Then we make a batch of these and buy 1 or 10 suitable donor transmissions in Europe along with the proper shifter (cheaply) and ladies and gentlemen, we have a 5 speed conversion (after you relocate the oil filter, complete the linkage, come up with a transmission mount, and complete any required driveshaft work). In theory a great idea. In practice a lot of trouble if the holy grail of a 5 speed shows up on eBay UK or eBay DE at a reasonable price of $500 or less, then we might not take 'the road less traveled, Robert Frost -er ah sassparillakid' and forget the conversion. (, 05:50 PM)sassparillakid Wrote: Oh ok yeah I forgot about the starter. So where does the oil filter housing get relocated to?
You probably didn't see it in post 9 as follows: Regarding the oil filter housing: For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing. Today went by the pick-n-pull and there was a 1983 MB 300D automatic in one of the import rows. On the other side of the yard were a few Chevy S-10 pickups with 5-Speeds and further away were some Ford Mustangs. One S-10 and one mustang had the engine removed, so the transmissions were exposed and available for study.
After taking some rough measurements and looking over all 3 vehicles. The Mustang shifter is almost at the rear of the tail housing so the shifter is too far back, see post #1, BUT The S-10 shifter is right behind the main gear housing at the front of the T-5 tail housing. According to my rough measuring, there is a distinct possibility that the S-10 shifter would fall close to the stock W123 location. The disappointing aspect was the starter bungs in the both the Chevy and Ford belhousings are not in an acceptable orientation for the right side Mercedes starter. This leaves me thinking that since the belhousings bolt onto the T-5, the best option would be to cast a new T-5 belhousing that would mate up to the stock Mercedes OM617 aluminum casting off the back of the engine. This would be more expensive to produce and could become a show stopper. But if we had a belhousing, the custom flywheel could take the Mercedes ring gear and the matching clutch for the T-5 input shaft and have the starter bung in the correct location.
The custom T-5 belhousing could also facilitate the starter bolts coming from the front to attach the Mercedes starter. Then there is the custom rear transmission mount and driveshaft to sort out, but it seems feasible. Obviously more detailed research is needed. Wonder if anyone else would be interested in this as a kit, if we made a dozen or so to spread the cost. Again, thinking out loud. (, 01:51 AM)sassparillakid Wrote: I might be interested.
Also, the expense was going to be gone through to cast new bellhousings, why not just just cast new ones for mercedes transmissions that that may/may not require as much work to adapt transmission mounts, driveshafts, etc.? Is there any reason other than scarcity of these as opposed to the chevys? Very good question.
I could be wrong, but was under the impression that 99% of the available Mercedes manual 5 speed transmissions were one piece main castings without a removable belhousing. I think if these later 5 speeds with the starter on the left side had a removable belhousing, someone else probably would have made such a belhousing adapter long ago. That's my thinking and with the Mercedes I am still a student of learning so again could be wrong. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than we currently have could verify.
The T-5, manufactured by Borg Warner, used in Chevy's, Fords, and lots of other marques is cheap and available right here in our USA junkyards. Parts are everywhere and most re-builders have them exchange or outright. After talking to a local 300TD owner who has been looking for a year and my own 6 month search, the only suitable Mercedes 5 speeds, that I saw were for G-Wagons and wouldn't have found those if it hadn't been for the guidance from DeliveryValve who turned me on to the 717.420. You'd probably have several thousand in a complete kit if you sourced a 717.420 in Germany or the UK and then you'd still have to locate a 5 speed shifter and make the rod mods along with the driveshaft and rear mount changes seen on some of the conversion links. So am going to look into the costs associated with casting a belhousing for the BW T-5 if more detailed measurements prove it is possible. Re: starter relocation: you could also use a /8 240D 3.0 block with the oil filter housing up front.
But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons. Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on. There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400. And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild? I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too).
Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater. With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box.
W123 4spd W124/190 5spd W123 5spd W123 auto I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive. At least in my country. (, 12:52 PM)808morgan Wrote: Try this: Thanks for the link. They have everything, but the only drawback is the transmission is a 4-speed. Would like to make the change to a 5-speed. Robert (, 06:17 AM)DiseaselWeasel Wrote: Re: starter relocation: you could also use a /8 240D 3.0 block with the oil filter housing up front.
But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons. Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on. There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400. And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild? I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too).
Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater. With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box. W123 4spd W124/190 5spd W123 5spd W123 auto I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive. At least in my country. Thanks for the pictures and interesting info.
Had no idea there was a OM617 with oil filter that far forward. (, 10:42 AM)rdavisinva Wrote: Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info. Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123? Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7. Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit. Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123. There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7.
They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe. I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud: Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7. Wonder if this is worth looking into?
Robert Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and: The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back. Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter. The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage. Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed.
How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion. Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert You need a 88, the direct replacement transmission with the starter on the correct side for a 617 engine, good luck though! I've been looking and the only place I can find one is through MB and they're $3k+ core. Old thread but is the only one I found that have some information regarding the subject I want to ask: I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use?? In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same!
What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel? (, 06:22 PM)gaiex Wrote: Old thread but is the only one I found that have some information regarding the subject I want to ask: I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use?? In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same! What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel? Thanks The manual flywheel is different from the auto. We have lots of extra auto flywheels. They will fit in a flat rate box, and will send you one for the cost of shipping with the flex plate if you need it.
We also have 2 spare auto transmissions if you want one. I would be interested in your 4 speed when it becomes surplus to your needs.
Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info. Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123? Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7. Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit.
Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit. A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123. There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7.
They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe. I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud: Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter).
Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7. Wonder if this is worth looking into? Robert Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and: The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back. Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel.
So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate. To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter. The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article.
The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage. Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed. How is the W123 shift lever attached?
Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures? If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion.
Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice. (, 10:47 AM)vstefis Wrote: Best bet would be a stock 5-speed trans for the w123 (any engine). The side levers are pretty much the same as the ones in the 4-speed manual, except a bit shorter. Anywho, easily modifiable via the cut and weld method. The gearstick thingy is different, you'd need that, plus the short driveshaft bit, cross member, and that's about it. Easy to do, so I'd look for this. Plus it's original.
And pretty good as well. Thanks for the tips, BUT Have been looking off and on for over 6 months and no joy. That's why the thoughts to convert to a more readily available Mercedes 5 or even 6 speed. Are these stock 5-speeds you mention available in your 'neck of the woods'???
If so, there are 3 of us in the area looking for a 5 speed that will bolt up to the OM617. All 3 of us have 300TD wagons (estates) and one of the guys has been looking longer than I have and only found 4 speed manuals, NO 5 speeds located to date. (, 02:17 PM)vstefis Wrote: I can only say good things happen to those who wait. Perhaps, but for those of us who care to take an approach different from looking and waiting.
Used Mercedes Benz
And still explore the distinct possibility of building an adapter and using it to install a Mercedes 5 speed manual from a vehicle that is readily available and common enough to be inexpensive and easily fit. The search continues, perhaps someone else will lend some answers to the questions asked in this thread. Thanks, Robert. (, 04:55 PM)aaa Wrote: Thanks for the URL to the excellent thread.
It is full of useful information that shows very good work. The approach taken, while extraordinary in my opinion, is much more difficult to repeat when compared to manufacturing your own adapter and flywheel. The thread showed the transmission adapted to the engine, but with an adapter and custom flywheel, it will be the other way around.
This will eliminate any changes to the housing and first motion shaft. Am not knocking the good work, just would take a different approach.
This was exactly the sort of information I was searching for. It showed that other Mercedes transmissions had already been adapted and will work just fine provided you have the donor shifter that matches the adapted transmission and make the other changes in linkage, mounting, driveshaft sizing, and so on. My approach will be to find a plentiful 5 speed form the 80s early 90s era and make an adapter and flywheel so that the transmission won't need any modifications. Then if the adapted transmission fails or needs a rebuild it can be exchanged for another unit.
Also the clutch will match the transmission shaft splines and length. Still need to research the spedo gear ratio on the donor unit and ensure an accurate reading. Hopefully this will lead me to purchase a unit to start the project. On another note, there was a 6 cyl Mercedes gas 250 engine and transmission that came out of a 1985 W124 on UK ebay. The seller wasn't sure if it was a 4 or 5 speed, but the shape of the back of the housing may identify this or wonder if part numbers or markings somewhere on the housing would identify the number of gears. Would think there must be lists somewhere that specify this if you know the right numbers. Any suggestions here?
W123 Getrag 5 speeds are 717.400. If you find a car with it in the states they are most likely from 1981+ Euro 280E/CE/TE, 300D/CD/TD and 240D. I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts. The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400. Here is one for sale on ebay.de. If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing.
Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though. (, 08:02 PM)DeliveryValve Wrote: w123 Getrag 5 speeds are 717.400. If you find a car with it in the states they are most likely from 1981+ Euro 280E/CE/TE, 300D/CD/TD and 240D. I found one in a 1982 280CE and took all the related parts.
The G-Wagon 280GE and 300GD had the Getrag 717.420 trans which is the same as the 717.400. Here is one for sale on ebay.de If you are going to use a trans with the starter on the opposite side, you'll need to relocate the oil filter housing. Here is a thread of this discussion. It looks like some the pictures are gone though. Good to know, thanks. Regarding the oil filter housing: For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing if this project to make an adapter and custom flywheel for a later 5 speed is a go.
Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words): Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so? We should make a list of compatible transmissions. Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter?
Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400? (, 08:51 PM)rdavisinva Wrote. Regarding your other info on the stock 5 speeds that bolt right in (a few pictures are worth a few 1000 words): Sounds like the 4 speed shifter from a 240D may not work with the 5 speed, is this so? We should make a list of compatible transmissions. Will this W124 250 transmission have a 717.xxx number somewhere and if it is 717.400, it is the donor we seek without having to make an adapter?
Wonder if the ratios for the 717.420 are the same as the 717.400? Robert 4 speed shifter will not work with a 5 speed. Not familiar with the w124 250 as there never was never one here in the states. Closest would be the turbocharged 300D 2.5L.
But that one only came in a automatic. I would assume the w124 250 could be had in a Getrag 717.4xx. The numbers would be located on the right side of the trans. (Size: 22.06 KB / Downloads: 1,268) 717.420 and 717.400 to my understanding share the same ratios. (, 05:44 AM)aaa Wrote: The 124 250D transmission would be just like a 190D's transmission, same starter hump issue. Sorry fat fingered the keyboard and after only 1 beer. It is a manual transmission attached to a gasoline straight 6 cylinder 250 engine from a 1985 W123 not W124.
Assume this engine is externally the same as the 2.8 liter straight 6, but with smaller displacement. Heard back from the seller and the shift linkage and petal assembly were already removed from the vehicle, but the vin is: WDB5443 Will this help identify the number of gears if it still had the original manual transmission?
I'll send him the question regarding the 717.4xx and share the answer. (, 09:45 PM)sassparillakid Wrote: Can we just have somebody with a lot of time on their hands manufacture a bunch of these 5 speeds so its not like a quest for the Holy Grail to get one? Lol That was the original intent. Because the aluminum casting that mounts to the back of the OM617 engine block determines the starter location and matches the transmission bolt pattern, it can be removed and a newly machined 'flywheel housing & transmission adapter' mounted in it's place.
This new adapter would then match the 'donor 5 speed manual transmission' (that originally matched a different Mercedes engine with the starter on the left) along with a custom made flywheel that takes the donor clutch (so there are no changes to the transmission shaft) and spaces the clutch out the same distance as the donor. This custom flywheel bolts to the OM617 crankshaft and takes the donor ring gear so the donor starter bolts to the custom adapter and starts the OM617 engine. (had to read that one twice to make sure it was typed correctly) Then we make a batch of these and buy 1 or 10 suitable donor transmissions in Europe along with the proper shifter (cheaply) and ladies and gentlemen, we have a 5 speed conversion (after you relocate the oil filter, complete the linkage, come up with a transmission mount, and complete any required driveshaft work). In theory a great idea. In practice a lot of trouble if the holy grail of a 5 speed shows up on eBay UK or eBay DE at a reasonable price of $500 or less, then we might not take 'the road less traveled, Robert Frost -er ah sassparillakid' and forget the conversion. (, 05:50 PM)sassparillakid Wrote: Oh ok yeah I forgot about the starter.
So where does the oil filter housing get relocated to? You probably didn't see it in post 9 as follows: Regarding the oil filter housing: For the Land Rover OM617 conversion, we are making an adapter to take the Land Rover 300 TDI oil Filter housing which points a spin-on oil filter downward and out of the way of the bulkhead and still has internal thermostats that regulate the oil flow through the oil cooler. This may be a candidate to replace the original filter housing. Today went by the pick-n-pull and there was a 1983 MB 300D automatic in one of the import rows. On the other side of the yard were a few Chevy S-10 pickups with 5-Speeds and further away were some Ford Mustangs. One S-10 and one mustang had the engine removed, so the transmissions were exposed and available for study.
After taking some rough measurements and looking over all 3 vehicles. The Mustang shifter is almost at the rear of the tail housing so the shifter is too far back, see post #1, BUT The S-10 shifter is right behind the main gear housing at the front of the T-5 tail housing. According to my rough measuring, there is a distinct possibility that the S-10 shifter would fall close to the stock W123 location.
The disappointing aspect was the starter bungs in the both the Chevy and Ford belhousings are not in an acceptable orientation for the right side Mercedes starter. This leaves me thinking that since the belhousings bolt onto the T-5, the best option would be to cast a new T-5 belhousing that would mate up to the stock Mercedes OM617 aluminum casting off the back of the engine. This would be more expensive to produce and could become a show stopper. But if we had a belhousing, the custom flywheel could take the Mercedes ring gear and the matching clutch for the T-5 input shaft and have the starter bung in the correct location. The custom T-5 belhousing could also facilitate the starter bolts coming from the front to attach the Mercedes starter. Then there is the custom rear transmission mount and driveshaft to sort out, but it seems feasible.
Obviously more detailed research is needed. Wonder if anyone else would be interested in this as a kit, if we made a dozen or so to spread the cost. Again, thinking out loud. (, 01:51 AM)sassparillakid Wrote: I might be interested. Also, the expense was going to be gone through to cast new bellhousings, why not just just cast new ones for mercedes transmissions that that may/may not require as much work to adapt transmission mounts, driveshafts, etc.?
Is there any reason other than scarcity of these as opposed to the chevys? Very good question. I could be wrong, but was under the impression that 99% of the available Mercedes manual 5 speed transmissions were one piece main castings without a removable belhousing. I think if these later 5 speeds with the starter on the left side had a removable belhousing, someone else probably would have made such a belhousing adapter long ago. That's my thinking and with the Mercedes I am still a student of learning so again could be wrong. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than we currently have could verify.
The T-5, manufactured by Borg Warner, used in Chevy's, Fords, and lots of other marques is cheap and available right here in our USA junkyards. Parts are everywhere and most re-builders have them exchange or outright. After talking to a local 300TD owner who has been looking for a year and my own 6 month search, the only suitable Mercedes 5 speeds, that I saw were for G-Wagons and wouldn't have found those if it hadn't been for the guidance from DeliveryValve who turned me on to the 717.420. You'd probably have several thousand in a complete kit if you sourced a 717.420 in Germany or the UK and then you'd still have to locate a 5 speed shifter and make the rod mods along with the driveshaft and rear mount changes seen on some of the conversion links. So am going to look into the costs associated with casting a belhousing for the BW T-5 if more detailed measurements prove it is possible.
Re: starter relocation: you could also use a /8 240D 3.0 block with the oil filter housing up front. But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons.
Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on. There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400.
And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild? I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too). Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater.
With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box. W123 4spd W124/190 5spd W123 5spd W123 auto I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive.
At least in my country. (, 12:52 PM)808morgan Wrote: Try this: Thanks for the link. They have everything, but the only drawback is the transmission is a 4-speed. Would like to make the change to a 5-speed. Robert (, 06:17 AM)DiseaselWeasel Wrote: Re: starter relocation: you could also use a /8 240D 3.0 block with the oil filter housing up front.
But these came only in the 80HP fashion and have a different bore to the 88HP engines and thus would require a re-bore & 88HP oversize pistons. Or modified pistons to clear the 88HP pre-chambers - and so on. There's no easy way unless you wait for that Getrag 717.400. And then's the question - how worn out is it? Does it need a rebuild?
I found mine in France, for 250€ - the whole convesion kit sans gearbox bracket (auto bracket should work too). Luckily with only 105k miles on the odomater. With the later 190 or W124 transmissions you'd need a custom made or shortened and rebalanced drive shaft, as they'r a bit shorter than the 717.400/401 - yet the 717.400/401 is shorter than the W123 auto box. W123 4spd W124/190 5spd W123 5spd W123 auto I too had plans to have a custom adaptor plate made - but machining would've been expensive (it's not just a simple plate, it needs to be recessed to make room for the flywheel - there's a lot of machine time involved. Unless a smal batch of about 10-20 is made, it's too expensive.
At least in my country. Thanks for the pictures and interesting info. Had no idea there was a OM617 with oil filter that far forward.
(, 10:42 AM)rdavisinva Wrote: Have been reading various posts on several boards and gotten some conflicting info. Does anyone know of a list being assembled of the various 5 speeds available that will bolt up to the OM617 in the W123? Have been looking on both German and UK eBay and have only seen 4 speed manual transmissions for sale from the 240D and 300D W123 vehicles that were originally bolted to an OM616 - 7. Have had people tell me that they think a 5 speed out of a 280 SE will fit. Others say some of the early V8 Mercedes had a 5 speed that will fit.
A few recommended a G-wagon 5 speed that had an OM617 because they use a divorced transfer box and it may be easy to fit the main transmission in a W123. There are a number of 5 speeds out of the 190D and various other vehicles (like the W124) that have the starter positioned on the left side of the engine, opposite the OM616 & 7. They show up frequently and are cheaply priced on eBay in Europe.
I am no expert that's for sure, so sort of thinking out loud: Having had a machine shop make engine adapters and flywheels in the past, am wondering if it would be worthwhile to make an adapter that would mate to one (or more) of these later Mercedes 5 speeds that would also relocate the starter position and use a matching custom flywheel with the correct ring gear (that matches the donor transmission & starter). Then one could mate up a 5 speed from an OM602, OM603, 190D, or whatever is close enough to work with a custom adapter & flywheel. Assuming the remaining challenges of the shift lever, driveshaft, rear mount, and so on could be overcome, we could then have a not so rare 5 speed conversion for our W123s with OM616 - 7.
Wonder if this is worth looking into? Robert Someone suggested the T-5 so did a little more research and: The Mercedes transmissions are generally short and stout with the main shift lever roughly positioned above and near the middle front of the main housing connected via linkages to some levers that come out the side of the main housing. This is very much unlike other manufacturer designs that have the shifter out on the tail shaft much further back. Measured a T-5 World Class and while an adapter would make it mate to the OM617, the shift lever in the tail housing is far enough back that someone riding in the back seat would need to shift it after an access hole was cut in the tunnel. So to fit a T-5 would probably require fabricating complicated linkage and most likely modifying the transmission tunnel to accommodate.
To many changes for the T-5 and not an easy bolt in even with a matching adapter. The more obvious and easier conversion would be to use a cheap manual 5 or 6 speed Mercedes box readily available in Europe that is cheap to purchase with the transmission shift levers coming out the side like the genuine article. The only real issue besides getting the adapter to fit the donor transmission and also being concentric to fit the flywheel and ring gear, matched to the stock donor engine starter would be the shift linkage.
Most scrappers discard the linkages because they assume the destination vehicle already has it and don’t want to be bothered to remove it before the vehicle is crushed. How is the W123 shift lever attached? Does anyone have a parts list in diagram form that would tell the story with drawings or pictures?
If Mercedes produces these, it would be possible to compare among suitable vehicles and find a more educated guess of a match, so to speak. Or even better if the donor could use the stock W123 manual shift setup tied to the donor transmission via stock linkages. The baseline would be the stock setup on the W123. Then a close match (on paper anyway) would help choose a logical source for the conversion. Again just running some ideas up the pole for advice.
Robert You need a 88, the direct replacement transmission with the starter on the correct side for a 617 engine, good luck though! I've been looking and the only place I can find one is through MB and they're $3k+ core. Old thread but is the only one I found that have some information regarding the subject I want to ask: I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use?? In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same! What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel? (, 06:22 PM)gaiex Wrote: Old thread but is the only one I found that have some information regarding the subject I want to ask: I want to do the opposite of the tittle of this thread, I have an W115 240d 3.0 with the OM617 80hp with 4 spd manual gear box and I want to convert it to W115/w123 auto gear box, but my big question is, which flywheel to use?? In EPC the W115 w240d 3.0 have an unique flywheel part number, but the outer ring is the same as in other models, and in pictures all look the same!
What are the differences and from witch models can I use the flywheel? Thanks The manual flywheel is different from the auto. We have lots of extra auto flywheels.
They will fit in a flat rate box, and will send you one for the cost of shipping with the flex plate if you need it. We also have 2 spare auto transmissions if you want one. I would be interested in your 4 speed when it becomes surplus to your needs.
Hi, I have two W123 sedans, one a wrecked '84 Euro grey market, NA engine, 5 speed Getrag, crank windows, tow hitch, etc. Before the car was wrecked I had done the job of replacing the clutch (broken pressure plate spring), and had had to search for the correct parts. The other one is a U.S. Market '85 turbo sedan with Otto matic trans & turbo.
Question 1) I asked the local driveline builder how they'd address getting the engine balance right, and they said that if I brought both the flexplate/torque converter and the Flywheel and clutch assembly, that they just balance the flywheel assembly to match the flexplate assembly, and that would work. It sounds logical. Does this make sense? The company: - macmaster.com/ has a good reputation around here. Question 2) The transmission nameplate reads: Original Mercedes Benz Teil Nr: 123 260 2001 Aggregat Nr.
/80 024716 (the '7' may be a 'Z') Before the car got wrecked, the transmission was making a funny 'clanking' noise only while in neutral with the clutch ENGAGED. It sounds kind of like a bad throw out bearing, except that with the clutch engaged the bearing isn't turning. I've been told that the problem is something about a shaft that runs in a bored bushing in the aluminum case, and that the fix is to bore it out and install a bearing. Is anyone familiar with this gearbox or this problem? Are parts available? Either from Mercedes or Getrag?
Can anyone recommend a transmission guy who's familiar with these? My plan is to take the car off the road this winter, and I wouldn't be in a screeching hurry to turn the job around. Question #3: I hate the U.S. Car's 'not so Smart' climate control, and have toyed with transplanting the manual rig out of the Euro car. I've been warned that this involves tearing the whole dashboard out, and is a pain in the neck. Anyone done it? Doc scrubber docx download conversion. Thanks for any advice.
Yep, a noise heard in neutral with the clutch pedal up and clutch engaged, is comibg from the input shaft bearing. In that case, the whole clutch assembly is turning together, as well as the input shaft. The throwout bearing does not spin. Disengaging the clutch at a stop causes the throwout bearing and pilot bearing to spin, but it stops the clutch disc and input shaft from spinning. Unless the noise is very bad and very loud, don't worry. My 717.410 kind of sounds like a sewing machine whirring when the input shaft spins at idle in neutral. I'm not worried.
Winmutt, I thought that MB made turbo 5 cyls for the European market, and assumed that they offered them with gearboxes. Did they not hold up? I only have anecdotal evidence, but when I was running the NA 300D, we used to go to work at an average speed of 100 mph (middle of the winter, middle of the night, Augusta Maine to Yarmouth) Maine, and the gearbox held up all right, except for the odd clanking at idle. And the gearbox has 260,000 miles on it, and the car only 100, so I'm hoping to put another 200,000 on the gearbox before I'm done. Howdy, I am looking for the clutch kit for my five speed.
Have you sourced one? I want to swap out the tranny since I never really had an effective 2nd gear.
During the swap, I want to replace the clutch, et cet. I clocked over 100 MPH a little while ago. I bet your differential was howling. I have a 2:65LSD, and I cannot imagine the stock 3:69 (or anything in that ballpark) would have fun hitting triple digits. Congrats on hitting 100+. Please post what you find out about a clutch kit.
Unlikely the trans will last long behind the 300td. I would get a rebuild job done with the longest warranty you can find.
I think this gear box can handle the torque. They are rated for 270 nm. Gl275 The rattle is the reverse idler bushing bearing most likely. Chances are the input shaft will be not worn. If you search international forums you will see that many people have tried to remedy this problem to no avail.
I brought mine to a repair shop and was lucky to get out the door for under $500. Just for the input shaft bearing.
That did nothing to the side to side play in the input shaft. You wont get out the door very easily under 1k for a simple overhaul and that may still not remedy the issue. The entire transmission could be brought into specifications as far as clearances and end play go. That requires complete tear down and rebuild. QUOTE=greazzer;3391154Howdy, I am looking for the clutch kit for my five speed. Have you sourced one? I want to swap out the tranny since I never really had an effective 2nd gear.
During the swap, I want to replace the clutch, et cet. I bought the clutch, pressure plate, and master cylinder from a mail order place somewhere in the U.S. But that was ten years ago, and lord knows where the paper has gone. I mainly remember doing it in a poorly heated shop, with the car on ramps, and it was a very miserable job.
The most interesting part was that there was one bolt that could only be removed/installed with an assembly of about three feet of socket extensions and two universal joints. Great design!! Have you tried Mercedes? By the way, while looking for the name of the parts seller in my digital files, I came up with this response from a Porsche specialist. What you are describing is a Reverse Idler Gear - also know as an Idler Gear or Auxiliary Gear. It's a common problem with Getrag Transmission.
Among BMWs, the 260, 240 and 280 and 250 all share this same problem. From the factory, there is a shaft in the Tranny, that supports the Reverse Idler Gear and it is NOT shimmed properly against the case (too much clearance.) Somewhere after 125,000 to 150,000 miles and/or without regular oil changes, the rattle develops. To fix it (in a BMWanyway), the entire transmission must be disassembled and reshimmed. Your transmission won't break or prevent you from getting home but it is annoying.